Great River Institute - Growing the Point

Growing The Point

Sensei...

what i see is what i did was take one single illustration from your response, grab onto it because it felt like i could understand and relate to it, and then i distilled it down and made it smaller in discussing how it related to me personally... in this way, instead of opening something up further by expanding and making it bigger, i closed it down by bringing into my own personal "micro" perspective... would this be an example of facing more outwardly instead of facing more inwardly?... i ask because on the one hand it can appear to be looking more inwardly (taking an illustration and having a self realization about it sounds on the face of it as facing inward), but really seems more like facing outward because in grabbing hold of a single example and applying it in the way i did was to distill down into something small and very specific to that one single thing, which while it may have value, it is limited to that particular application...

August 7, 2009 at 11:21 | JO

I want to offer a very different perspective to you. You already know the one you usually use and you know how it does for you. This is quite different and will lead you to another way of being in the moment. Some people have difficulty doing this with effort. Some can do a couple of repetitions. If done continuously, you will realize the point of everything.

First, before I review what it is again, let me say that your responses and remarks have good qualities and are expressing very worthwhile feelings and ideas.

Secondly, what I am suggesting is that you frame your responses in the practice suggestions I have given you. There are four simple principles and a lot of lesson material that I am asking you to use when you respond.

Third, the response you sent above is not in that frame, but it certainly has merit. I just want you to express it in the framework I have detailed.

Fourth, if this is too difficult to do, I will adjust the lesson material and we can work where you are more comfortable, such as in the nature of how you tend to present your remarks.

Fifth, are you inward or outward, you ask. You are outward from what I am suggesting you do, but you are explaining an inward understanding of yours.

Sixth, I really do understand what you are doing and saying. I am happy to explain your position more fully and discuss it with you if that will help you to open to the lesson better.

Seventh, I would rather see you continuing to practice here even if you are unsure about the point of this.

Eighth, I would like you to see how your explanations are a form of excuse, where you are explaining something important to you but where you are still waiting to practice the lesson. You do not have to explain yourself to me.

Ninth, I am not questioning the truth of what you are saying and asking. I am asking and suggesting that if you want to understand what I am teaching about, you have to find some way to practice my suggestions for understanding.

Tenth, you need to have fun here, even if its a bit off point. I am here to share a way of being in the moment that if practiced in the ways I have suggested, it will lead you to the center of any moment including the beginning of your own concerns and beyond.

Eleventh, are you aware that we are practicing here even when making comments?

Twelfth, If you want me to reply and interact outside of holding you to the reason, I am happy to do it...but I will still be doing what I am trying to show you.

The four principles are present over and over here. I hid them a little, but not too much. I usually use them in my comments by naming them as I go. Can you find them? When you comment can you use them and show them in your comments? Can you order them as suggested and repeat them with an increase in Value each time? Can you Respect how I am holding the point of these studies open for an improved practice? Can you Appreciate how I am explaining it again? Do you have any Gratitude for the clarity I am offering? Has this increased the meaning of the practice and made the Value better understood in any way?

Talk to me with principles. I understand your comments. I am meeting you in yours, but I am holding to the reason we are in this forum. Meet me even more in the principles themselves.

sensei

August 7, 2009 at 20:14 | sensei

Sensei,

Thank you for your last reply to me, and also, the one you’ve made to JO, which I see as giving an example of how to approach, in this post, practice via the twelve steps. I will try to emulate that example in this moment of writing and see in real time where it leads; I genuinely have no idea what will emerge by the end of my post. In this preamble, let me say that I have reviewed the materials in the sensei area of the site and in your previous postings here. To me, what seemed particularly relevant given what I perceive to be my current point of “dwell” (which formerly I might have expressed as my current state [perhaps more accurately stage] of being) were several exchanges between you and James about “mystical experience.”

I do not really Value mystical experience per se. As I have mentioned earlier, I see the sense of bliss that such an experience brings as an epiphenomenon, something that brings pleasure, but as the more Matterwards component of it. It seems to be, in your terms, a temporary shift of dwell in which one’s current stage of being is shifted en blocSourcewards. One finds oneself being able to perform in one’s inward and outward living and giving at an appreciably higher level, and that seems to me to be the most Sourcewards Value to Respect.

First, what I want to be more about is coming to dwell in that stage I have been offered glimpses of (maybe there are stages beyond, but that is my current aim). As a hopefully necessary explicatory aside, my past practice has always been influenced by the view that such glimpses are a divine gift: there is nothing I can do to bring them on at will. I’m not sure I would want to even if I could, because it’s possible that part of their function is to act as the kind of Value “landmark” for Adam nature that I allegorised previously.

You get nothing for nothing; you have to pay the price. Allegorically, someone might loan you a car for a while, making your life very much easier, but you can’t expect to be loaned it at will, or to keep it as long as you want; even if you could, that wouldn’t do anything to actually change your true “car ownership” status. No: you have to earn the means to acquire your own car. Maybe the loaner lent it to you precisely so that you could see its great utility, and to spur you on to change your being by paying the price for a car of your own.

This then, has been at the core of my practice: I have been striving over the years to earn residence in the new point of dwell, but because I had had the glimpse of where I wanted to be, my efforts weren’t completely blind or undirected. I knew something of what would be correct living and giving because for a limited time I’d been able to perform effortlessly at the higher level, and experience just how “right” that felt.

I wanted nothing, absolutely nothing, more than to make an irrevocable shift of being to the new stage. That desire was at the very core of my being; using a term I mentioned before, it became embedded as the metaValue I’ve previously thought of as my inner “Observer”.

Now: at the glimpsed point of dwell, Adam and Eve nature are in harmonious dynamic balance. Eve does not fight Adam. She is pleased with her livings and givings, able to see the Value of the Gratitude component. And Adam is pleased to see that outward givings (Appreciative) are in harmony with the Gratitude he feels. I’m not saying that there won’t then be some further period of iterative learning, some yet higher glimpse, and some urge to move to a yet higher point of dwell where there is also dynamic balance. However, I shouldn’t try to run before I can walk.

Back where I am at my current stage, Observer is pretty much constantly keeping an eye on what happens. It is usually aware when Eve nature is causing problems. Over the years, it has become better, through practice, at performing in the moment, at ensuring that I don’t act on negative impulses – viz. ones that cause Matterwards Kalamazoo slippage. It has also become better at not allowing such slippage to discourage me, to plunge me into orgies of self-recrimination that only serve to retard my progress. You have to get up quickly, dust yourself off, and start all over again, as the song says.

So – through iteration, through practice and effort, I have in fact made some progress. I do seem to be gradually migrating towards the desired point of dwell I have glimpsed.

Hence, second, the Value I want to improve is the quality of my point of dwell, viz. its propinquity to the target point of dwell.

Third, I have varying degrees of efficiency and effectiveness in Respecting that Value in the moment. Observer is always there, but it’s not always as strong or determined as it should be. Sometimes, Eve may be stronger in the moment. There may be a hell of a fight with Adam, and stasis, or varying degrees of slippage, may occur.

Fourth, how to Appreciate that Value by practicing a way to grow that Value in your moment in the matters you are engaging in as you put it? Well, this is a difficult one for me. My practice so far seems to be working. The question is, can I make it work better?

Maybe time for another explicatory aside. I do in fact already have a teacher. I suppose one could categorize him, loosely, as having at least some affinity with the Sufi tradition. His methods can’t be said to rely on physical interaction including such things as conversation. Matter of fact, in the five years or so I’ve been in his school, I have never really talked to him beyond a couple of times when all that seemed to happen was an exchange of pleasantries. I have never talked to him as I am talking to you now, and I have the sense that he discourages that.

I have certain daily exercises, and I do those, as well as making subscriptions to the school, and occasionally have attended such gatherings of students as I can manage. You’d never know I was a member of a “spiritual school”. I hypothesise that the exercises help maintain contact, through the teacher, with some kind of spiritual energy or baraka that he channels. This energy then works in everyday life. Everyday life is my school. It may sound bizarre to some, but the proof of a pudding is in the eating. In the five years, I have noticed that the rate of change in me has accelerated. I haven’t a clue how or why, but it’s a fact.

“Everyday life” includes my interest in spiritual matters, and I pursue that largely through Internet discussions, which is what led me here – via James’ Hidden Recess Forum to contact with MW there and at EA. The way I see it, I am currently visiting the tariqua (school) of another teacher (you): you have apparently accepted me as a student of your particular teaching, and I am gratefully taking advantage of that.

Sufis, in my understanding, have always worked like that. Students of one teacher may, for specific purposes, visit the tariqua of some other teacher. I don’t question what brought me here or whether your teaching is going to be useful to me. I’m going with the flow, because I have found since I joined my school, doing that seems to have beneficial results. So I want to approach your teaching with a sincere heart, and without cynicism. This is the Respect your teaching is owed. Unless I engage with it in this way, my attitude is that I won’t be able to benefit from whatever it has to offer.

So the current question resolves to: can attempting to follow your teaching make things work better for me?

I don’t as yet know. I’m in process of finding out.

I want to be able to go on to step five and all the way to step twelve. But the thing that is stumping me is that I appear to have been doing something so far that, to some degree, works. If it didn’t, it would be easier to Focus on how you are and can give that reason better and find something you can do that will be a better version of the reason itself as you put it in your 12 steps document. I can’t think of a better way to practice. Nor can I think of a better version of the reason itself. This is because I have already been given a glimpse of reasons which are still appreciably ahead of where I dwell; and the whole point of current practice seems to be, aiming for those.

I can only seem to think that improving the efficacy of my methods is the way forwards. Maybe in some way I need more sincerity, to give more attention, work harder, or maybe there’s some technique I could use that would extract more useful work from the system. Maybe I’m wasting energy rather than not putting enough in. I’m unsure.

So that’s it: I see that I have ended up getting as far as step 4 in the twelve steps insofar as I understand them. I’m not conscious of making excuses as you put it, but maybe I am. Maybe you can see how and in what way, and if so, could say something that might help break the log jam, if you think that might be useful. Or, maybe you see some flaw in my thinking. I’m open to anything you might have to say, if you think saying it is going to be productive. Maybe it’s down to me to work something out for myself, and if so, I will accept that.

August 8, 2009 at 1:54 | ML

"Talk to me with principles. I understand your comments. I am meeting you in yours, but I am holding to the reason we are in this forum. Meet me even more in the principles themselves." Sensei

This is a good point to come back and revisit from time to time: the purpose of our discussions, or the purpose of anything we are claiming is important to us. In this case, the purpose of our discussions are centered on and in the principles of the Art of Giving. We can, of course, change this, and we can also start other discussions that have completely different subject matter. But deepening our understanding of the principles, through practice, is our purpose right now. If, in these discussions, we feel a sense of pressure or a sense of being challenged to a deeper point within ourselves, the point we are being challenged to here - that Sensei says he is 'holding' to - is the practice of the principles. And the more the master teacher's presence is available, the more likely that feeling of being called to a deeper point is to occur.

How often do we say we want something, only to drift away from it. Similarly, sometimes - as Sensei points out elsewhere here - we focus only on developing a parallel understanding of something, a series of side-shoots that may expand our knowledge laterally, but is not about taking us any deeper into the understanding. Our purpose here is deeper understanding and application.

Among other things, these four principles teach us how to effectively and genuinely go deeper, and also how to recognize when we aren't going deeper. Part of their value is that they can do that in anything. So, when ML, for example, points out that, "My practice so far seems to be working. The question is, can I make it work better?" - the answer is yes. How? Your practice of these principles may accelerate your advancement, they may deepen your understanding, they may even take you deeper past the point of your original goal. What do you want them to do? And, do we want to work on minimizing our confusion in moving deeper? If so, how is that done?

From, 'Ask Sensei: Deeper Principles'

"To go more effectively into the moment we have to have a way of being in the moment that provides an experience in the variables that are inherent in the potential. When we hold to fixed ideas, we cannot flex into the variations that can hold greater and lesser values to our reasoning.

"The Current of Life and the Current Moment is an expression of the Everything and our relationship to that Everything is through our abilities to conduct the Principles of the Everything. Each principle addresses a particular aspect or way of being in the Everything.

"Are some principles more important than others? Each has its own relationship to the Nature of the Everything. Some are better understood when others are being coordinated. When we coordinate, we actually engage in those points inside the Everything according to our relationships with those points of being."

August 8, 2009 at 10:10 | MW

ML;

Please consider this suggestion as it can open some new understandings. First, I really appreciate what you are sharing. I do however want to show you how to meta-value your effort in the moment. Let's begin by looking at your statement that your current teachings work for you. That's good to hear. Here is my first request. Since they work for you, ask them to stop working and to take a break for a moment. They can get right back to work as soon as you have seen this.

Look carefully at your entire reply. Look past the wonderfully concise descriptive narrative. Look past the truths contained and expressed. See the whole thing as a single value. Now, look at growing that value very deliberately (appreciation). Next, see something in the growing of that value to be truly grateful for. It should be something that best indicates the meta-value state you want to be more in. Now respect that and focus every aspect of your effort on that value. Appreciate that and find, in the newly appreciated value, another even more valuable example of the meta-value state you want to be more in. Respect that and focus solely on that value. You should now be further into your objective. Appreciate it, but appreciate it even more fully and find another even still more valuable example of the meta-state you want to be more in. Respect that and appreciate it again to an even higher degree.

Don’t settle for drift even when the content is alluring. All that matters here is your practicing what you truly want to be more about. And I am saying to do that, to go beyond our normal limits, we must do something different in the moment. Practice the principles and you will.

Don't be so tied to the content, even though you obviously are very articulate and understanding. You will not dwell in the meta-state unless you dwell in it. I am showing exactly how to do it. I am willing to help you if you get lost or stuck. I am watching your every turn. I am tracking your every value. The moment contains the potential to do this. How many times have we heard a teacher say this? Well, let’s do it. I am showing how.

Now look again at your entire posting. You should be able to see how little time you spent in the value you say you want to be full time about. Don't talk about it. Build your way into it, right in the moment, by using the principles that govern that experience. Do not waste time on anything negative. Let anything go that is not in line with the value you are in the moment to grow.

Now, ask your teachings to come back to work to help you do this. And if they help you, give them a raise! Raise the value of their help through the four principles. If they don't help you, let them go do what they do best, and keep yourself on your chosen path.

sensei

August 8, 2009 at 10:56 | sensei

Sensei,

Thanks for what you've said. I need some time for it to percolate. My intention is to genuinely try to do what you have suggested. I'll respond when I'm ready to give it as much as it deserves. Maybe a day or two.

August 8, 2009 at 12:02 | ML

MW ,

Thanks also for what you have said. Especially this quote from Sensei, which hadn't really registered with a lot of force: "When we hold to fixed ideas, we cannot flex into the variations that can hold greater and lesser values to our reasoning."

August 8, 2009 at 12:05 | ML

Sensei,

As things have turned out, I have something to say sooner than I thought.

In Rumi’s Mathnawi (see: http://arthursclassicnovels.com/arthurs/islam/mathnv10.html and search for “claw” on the page), you will find the story of the old woman and the falcon:

To illustrate Haman's spiritual blindness, she told the story of a royal falcon who fell into the hands of an ignorant old woman. This old woman knew nothing of the virtues of a falcon, and was displeased at the falcon's appearance, and said to it, "What was your mother about to leave your claws and beak so long?" She then proceeded to trim them short, according to her fancy, and of course spoiled the falcon for all purposes of falconry.

A version of this is amongst the stories that Idries Shah published, and, like many who’ve read a lot of Shah, I can attest how from time to time one finds oneself in the embarrassing position of being like one of the characters in them. At one stage of one’s life, one might see that in one context, and at another, in another. In the current context, I’d like to elaborate the story a bit and add that the old woman kept the falcon in a cage as if it were a pet pigeon, constantly keeping it looking that way.

How does that make me feel? Well, getting past the initial feeling of embarrassment, it makes me feel really good. Very liberated. Very grateful I came to your tariqua and you helped me discover it so quickly!

Okay. So let’s throw away the cage and let the bird grow back its beak and claws. What’s the next step? Well, I notice that I have thought of your teaching on the art of giving as being systematic because that’s my own tendency. However, I don’t think you use the word “system” yourself. You talk more about principles, and principles do not a system make. They are much more flexible than that. So maybe what I ought to be doing is taking a fresh look at the principles in relation to my reason for being.

I note that the system I had imposed on my practice limited what Value I chose to Respect. Previously, I limited it to irrevocably regaining a point of dwell that I had been fortunate enough to glimpse. Then, feeding that back into another aspect of the system, once I had done that, it would be time for more iterative learning and migration to the next point of dwell. Yes, it works to a degree, but why stage things? Things might well work better without the system, and without my imposing arbitrary limits on it. For a falcon, the sky can be the limit. The Value I can choose to Respect is continuous shifting of the point of dwell. That focuses practice more in the moment rather than at some future point when the caravan of dreams arrives.

One step further. I need to be on the alert for any future attempts to systematize. This will be a refinement in Observer, something it needs to keep a close eye on. I don’t think it will be something I have to keep reminding myself about. Today’s discovery has had a powerful impact, the kind of thing that really hits home and gets embedded in one’s being.

I note I can still carry on using a lot of the terms I’ve used formerly, and they still make sense, but sans a caging system, they too have become less limited. So many things have freed up. I find that very exciting. My sense of optimism and positivity has received a huge boost.

Who wouldn’t feel gratitude?

August 8, 2009 at 15:17 | ML

There are some other real gems here, as well. As James said in an earlier discussion, we should go back through what Sensei is telling us line-by-line. For example:

"If done continuously, you will realize the point of everything."

I have watched Sensei closely, as you might imagine. I have accompanied him, and participated in his deeper work, including extended openings of 'the field.' Can you imagine what it would be like to actually realize the point of everything? "If done continuously" we can. I have witnessed it.

"Don’t settle for drift even when the content is alluring. All that matters here is your practicing what you truly want to be more about."

It is tempting to read this last quote and only reflect on its meaning relative to these discussions. But also relative to the purpose of our discussions is the deeper issue of what we "truly want to be more about" in our lives. This is "all that matters here," isn't it?

August 8, 2009 at 18:37 | MW

You see, it suddenly dawned on me that I may well have a number of useful ideas – Metavalues, allegorical Kalamazoos, Observer, and so on, but the problem is, I seem unwittingly to have woven them into a cage or system that links them in such a way that it limits my possibilities of thought and action. Why have I done this? God only knows. It’s a tendency of mine to systematize, I suppose. How does that make me feel? Well, getting past the initial feeling of embarrassment, it makes me feel really good. Very liberated. Very grateful I came to your tariqua and you helped me discover it so quickly!... I note that the system I had imposed on my practice limited what Value I chose to Respect. Previously, I limited it to irrevocably regaining a point of dwell that I had been fortunate enough to glimpse.

I am cheering, ML. Not only for you, but also for the fundamental power of these four simple principles. And, if we step back for just a moment, we can see that your practice of them is still at an introductory point, which makes your realization all the more significant. In the light of such a powerful realization, I will suggest that it becomes even more appropriate for us to re-consider Sensei's words above, "If done continuously, you will realize the point of everything."

As I think about this term "if done continuously", I can see at least two ways to consider it. First, we can think of it in terms of consciously, deliberatively and repetitively applying the four principles of Respect, Appreciation, Gratitude and Value. It IS important to do conscious repetitions, because this kind of practice 'calls us out', forces us to confront the things within ourselves that are inhibiting even better practice and nice, clean flow. But there comes a point when a rookie policeman is no longer thinking about all the lessons of the police academy - he just is; the professional tennis player is no longer focusing on her coach's instructions - rather, she has 'burned them in' deeply enough that she goes with the flow. And, as I see it, the equivalent of that, with regard to these principles, is that in-between spot, between Appreciation and Gratitude, between Adam and Eve, that spot called the Christ point.

"This is the meaning of the Midst in the Garden of Eden where the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge are located. The Tree of Knowledge separated [Adam and Eve] from the Tree of Life - only because they gave their sense of center to it, moving further away from the original spark." (from 'Reconciling our Separation from Oneness')

So knowledge, without a sense of center, easily moves us away from that spot.

August 9, 2009 at 12:06 | MW